Sarah Andelman came over for a snack with Julien Pham
In this second episode of the À la Mère de Famille podcast, Déborah and Steve welcome Sarah Andelman and her guest Julien Pham for a snack. Between tasting and chatting (with their mouths full), nostalgic memories and working together as a family, share this delicious moment with us and learn how their joint projects turned into beautiful friendships.
Thank you @sarahandelman @phamilyfirst
Enjoy listening 🎧
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Sarah Andelman
Named after a great woman of letters, especially her mother's first name, she shaped the Parisian lifestyle scene for 20 years. From 1997 to 2007, Sarah Andelman co-founded and served as artistic director of the iconic concept store colette. More than just a shop, it was a true hub of creativity, an elegant way of life at the crossroads of the arts. Since then, the curator has launched herself into publishing with Just an Idea Books to celebrate emerging artists. She has just signed the foreword of the Paris Shopfronts collection, a journey through nearly 200 illustrated and narrated local addresses. Among them, the delicious À la Mère de Famille.
Julien Pham
With Julien, the hungry find plenty to fill the void. The young man in his forties is at the cutting edge. Founder of the event agency Phamily First, he works daily to shake up Parisian food by bringing together the best, stars and newcomers, to create the spark and set the taste buds ablaze. Since then, his vibrant sense of merchandising has led him to create Giftshop Club, a platform for creating and selling souvenirs bearing the stamp of the capital's most memorable culinary institutions, with whom À la Mère de Famille had the chance to collaborate.
In their baskets...
Transcript
Déborah Pham — So Steve, today, a new episode with guests who are rather focused on the world of fashion, I think.
Steve Dolfi — Yes. We are welcoming Sarah Andelman, who had created the Colette store with her mom, so very fashion-oriented, and Julien Pham, who often makes the link between the world of fashion and the world of food, with whom we have already collaborated several times.
Déborah Pham — Great. I'll leave you to welcome them and I'll wait for you upstairs.
Steve Dolfi — With pleasure.
Déborah Pham — So that, that's a beautiful snack table, Steve! It's the table of Sarah Andelman, our guest, and her companion Julien Pham. Hello to you both.
Sarah Andelman — Hello.
Julien Pham — Hello.
Steve Dolfi — Me, I already have my mouth full.
Déborah Pham — Oh yeah, it's off to a good start!
Steve Dolfi — I'm so happy to welcome Sarah and Julien, with whom I have already collaborated. The first collaboration we did all three of us, we looked back: it was ten years ago, almost to the day.
Julien Pham — Oh really? Me, I had said more than ten years.
Steve Dolfi — Ten years. Exactly ten years!
Julien Pham — OK.
Steve Dolfi — To the day. Incredible. And we meet again today.
Déborah Pham — Did you plan a tiered cake, a birthday cake, something? I know that's really the kind of thing you could do.
Steve Dolfi — You're going to make me feel bad because I didn't do it.
Déborah Pham — We'll find something! In any case, there might not be a birthday cake, but there are quite a few things on this table. And I think it's quite striking, because there are plenty of very regressive pleasures.
Steve Dolfi — That, those are Julien's tastes. Starting with the Papinou that I am currently tasting.
Sarah Andelman — That one, I find it too cute. Even if it wasn't to eat it, just for the decor: a blue polka dot dog.
Steve Dolfi — We can really recognize Sarah's sense of detail.
Déborah Pham — Plus, they always have little nicknames for children.
Steve Dolfi — It's especially at Easter. All the Easter molds bear the names of the children in the family. Here, there are also quite a few adult candies.
Déborah Pham — A good adult moment.
Steve Dolfi — Gingerbread sticks…
Déborah Pham — Oh, I thought you were talking about the rum babas!
Steve Dolfi — Oh yes, also! Those are always a little there. We even planned something to make toast with.
Sarah Andelman — It's terrible to listen to this podcast, to hear about confectionery and not be eating!
Steve Dolfi — That's why you need the images. That way, people really want it and come in droves. Well… everything is calculated, of course.
Déborah Pham — Of course. The rum baba is a strategy: it's to give you some swagger if you ever have a craving. A little shot of rum.
How do you two know each other?
Julien Pham — I thought about it and, honestly, I don't remember exactly anymore, Sarah. I know the context. At the time, Colette was obviously an institution and a reference place. Me, I was a young entrepreneur with my food magazine, Fricote, and I had approached Sarah to be able to sell the magazine at Colette.
Sarah Andelman — I said yes right away!
Julien Pham — Yes, and I was surprised. Thank you very much, by the way, because coming like that with your project, knocking on a door that seems huge and having an almost immediate yes, with a large order of magazines, really gave me a leg up.
Steve Dolfi — I really recognize Sarah in what you're telling.
And so, at the time we did this collaboration together — Colette, Fricote, À la Mère de Famille — is that when you met?
Julien Pham — No, we already knew each other a little before.
Sarah Andelman — I remember we were distributing the magazine. At each issue, you proposed it. It was really innovative at the time. Was the word "epicurean" in the description?
Julien Pham — "Urban epicurean".
Sarah Andelman — There it is! It was so avant-garde. Today, treating food in a lifestyle way is part of our daily life, but at the time, it was really innovative. The graphics were super cool too. Were you working with artists for the covers?
Julien Pham — Yes. Jean Jullien had done one, there was also Tyrsa… And then, through you by the way, we had done a cover with the Monsieur Madame.
Sarah Andelman — Oh yes!
Julien Pham — Do you remember? You had received the son of the creator of the Monsieur Madame.
Déborah Pham — I love that we call it that!
Julien Pham — It was typically the kind of legendary event that was at Colette. We had convinced them to create a character especially for the occasion, drawn by the son of the creator: Monsieur Fricote, a Monsieur cook with a chef's hat. And we had sold this issue at Colette.
Sarah Andelman — How many issues did you do, do you remember?
Julien Pham — Me, I founded the magazine, then I left it to other people. It stopped two issues later.
Déborah Pham — You, Sarah, you already had an interest in gastronomy, since I remember the Water Bar too…
Sarah Andelman — "Gastronomy", that's a big word, but yes, food was very important from the conception of Colette.
We had this little message: style, design, art, food. We wanted to create a meeting place, even if it was simply to drink a glass of water or a coffee in the basement.
It was the Water Bar, with a menu where we were going to pick the best of Paris right and left. There were also pastries.
Steve Dolfi — But that's how we met!
Sarah Andelman — Maybe we had contacted you for the little Napolitains?
Steve Dolfi — No, for the Eskimo bars. I remember exactly what happened: you came to serve yourself Eskimo bars at À la Mère de Famille to sell them at the Water Bar. Me, I wasn't really aware.
And one day, a salesman tells me: "Yes, that, that's for Colette." For me, at the time, like for Julien, Colette, it was Mecca. I told him: "What do you mean, Colette?" He answers me: "Yes, rue Saint-Honoré."
I told myself that I absolutely had to get in touch with you. And after our meeting, it became a love story for quite a long time.
Sarah Andelman — It's crazy that you were already making Eskimo bars at that time!
Steve Dolfi — It was twelve or thirteen years ago, I think.
Déborah Pham — It's funny to hear that. And for once, I can testify too: being at Colette, it was a bit like getting a mushroom in Mario Kart. It gave you an immediate boost.
And there was another effect that you may have noticed too, Julien: once Colette said yes, everyone else said yes. There was a domino effect.
Were you aware, Sarah, of that power and the power of Colette at the time?
Sarah Andelman — No. Not at all.
I was in the moment. I was taking care of the store being completely focused on making it live, constantly renewing it, having interesting guests.
All the better if it had positive side effects, but it didn't really concern me.
Steve Dolfi — Because it wasn't just any mushroom! It was the end-of-level mushroom from Mario Kart.
And above all, when you started working with Colette, you realized what a family it was and the energy that was around. Even around the food, you felt that there were only gourmands: Colette, you, Guillaume… everyone.
Déborah Pham — Because maybe not everyone understood: Colette, that's your mom, with whom you founded the store.
Julien, you who said it was a very important temple when you were young, how would you describe Colette?
Julien Pham — It was a crossroads.
What was really interesting and innovative at the time was precisely being at the crossroads of all cultures and all subjects that made our daily life and our interests.
There was obviously fashion and high fashion, but they were also very sharp in streetwear. Me, that's how I discovered Colette: through streetwear brands that I followed and that were only available there.
I wasn't from Paris, I came from the Parisian suburbs. When I arrived at Colette for the first time, I expected a streetwear store and I fell on this ultra beautiful, sophisticated store.
And it was the same for all the other subjects: music, food… Having such a transversal place, which was the crossroads of all that, was unique.
Today, a lot of things have become normal. But at the time, it took people to initiate these movements. And Colette was at the beginning of many, many stories and a lot of talents.
Déborah Pham — How did you cultivate that, Sarah?
Sarah Andelman — Especially by curiosity and meeting.
I have a lot of respect for all the people who are in action and who create something. Whether it's Steve with chocolate, Julien with his magazine, then his experiences and his meetings with chefs…
We were a meeting place and we didn't ask ourselves too many questions. We lived day by day, almost minute by minute. We had to keep it going, renew it. We changed the shop windows every week, the exhibitions every month.
I also traveled a lot, and I was always interested in everything. I couldn't limit myself to fashion, beauty, or music.
I often say that I know a lot of fields very superficially. My role was mainly to give space to my favorites and introduce them to others.
Steve Dolfi — I can't remember who said it in the report on Colette: "Colette is the internet before the internet."
Déborah Pham — To give a little context, maybe we could say a few words about your mother, since it was her name the store bore. How was your collaboration divided? Who did what?
Sarah Andelman — In 1997, when we decided to take this space, it was almost a no man's land. We were after the Faubourg-Saint-Honoré and its luxury stores, before the Halles. The neighborhood still looked a bit like a village, with the newsstand, the little bakery on the corner...
After seeing what was happening in Tokyo, New York, or London, we wanted to take this space.
We needed a name and, while talking, we settled on Colette. At the time, we thought no one would ever know that my mother's real name was Colette. We simply found the contrast between this somewhat old-fashioned name and a very modern space amusing.
And we were always very complementary. Mom was more about the store, the team, the merchandising, making sure everything was always impeccable.
Steve Dolfi — We spent the weekend and she was always in the store putting something back in place.
Sarah Andelman — And me, I was more there to bring the ingredients of the cocktail in all fields.
Steve Dolfi — With about three events a day!
Sarah Andelman — That was mostly towards the end. From the start, there were openings, signings, but I think there was a real acceleration in the last years.
Julien Pham — Do you remember that we had co-organized the Sandwich Day?
Sarah Andelman — Oh yes!
Julien Pham — Very, very good memory. There was a day in the calendar called Sandwich Day — I don't know if it still exists — and we had celebrated it at the Water Bar.
Sarah Andelman — You had brought some great chefs.
Julien Pham — Yes. There was notably my sister.
Déborah Pham — You can both talk about that since you, Sarah, worked with your mother, and you, Julien, also have the experience of working in a family with your sister.
Julien Pham — Céline, who is a chef. A great chef. Honestly, being very objective, it is one of the best restaurants in Paris and one of the best chefs in France.
Today, we work much less together because she opened her restaurant, Inari, which will soon celebrate its third anniversary. But before that, we were very often linked on projects. Too much, maybe. It was also good that we each did things on our own.
Déborah Pham — But you also opened a restaurant together, Tontine?
Julien Pham — Yes. We had opened Tontine in 2019, in the 11th.
At the time, the concept was quite new, while today it has become almost the norm: a programming of chefs, with one-month residencies and chefs coming from all over the world to introduce different cuisines to Parisians.
Me, I managed the project as a whole. My sister really made sure that all the dishes that came out were perfect, and she also cooked sometimes.
So yes, we did Tontine together in 2019.
Déborah Pham — With all this ecosystem around you, Julien, have you ever wanted to really get into cooking?
Julien Pham — I cook, but I have way too much respect for chefs and cooks to claim to cook at their level.
I cook for my girlfriend and for me, but that's it.
Déborah Pham — What do you cook?
Julien Pham — Very simple things. I love simple things.
But I decided that the next chapter of my life would be dedicated to cooking more.
Steve Dolfi — Maybe we can learn a little more about the chapters of your life.
You are introduced as Julien, who created Fricote, but between Fricote and today, what happened?
Julien Pham — In 2015-2016, I launched my agency alone, Family First.
I didn't really know what it was going to become. I simply said that it would be a food entity based on my values.
I wanted to be much more in action. Being in the media, I commented a lot on things, but honestly, I also wanted to be validated by this environment of restaurants and chefs. I wanted to be part of this family.
I started doing a lot of events and pop-ups that were, for the time, a bit surprising. I set up pop-up restaurants.
And it became Family First, my creative agency in the food universe. Next year, we will celebrate its tenth anniversary.
Déborah Pham — Already!
Julien Pham — Yes, now, we are starting to operate in decades.
And by the way, I came across something: 2016 is the year you had made the Panini box.
Sarah Andelman — Yes, of course.
Julien Pham — Colette and Panini had made an album with "families", like football teams, but classified by subjects: design, music, fashion...
And me, I had the honor of being in a Panini album. It was still a childhood dream to have my face on a sticker!
It was also the beginning of my Family First adventure, so symbolically it was very important. I was finishing a big part of my life around this media that I had left reluctantly, not knowing what the next chapter would bring.
And having immediately, the same year, the support of Sarah, it was still...
Steve Dolfi — Sarah's stamp of approval always reassures.
Déborah Pham — It's true that we talk a lot about you, Sarah, but you are our guest, we have a lot of questions!
How do you close a chapter like Colette, which was a hub for Parisians, but also for a lot of people from outside?
Sarah Andelman — Very simply: it was the right time.
It was a carefully considered decision and we are very happy to have done it while everything was going well, rather than waiting for things to deteriorate or for us to run out of ideas.
And we also had the pride of being able to leave the whole team to be taken over by Saint Laurent.
We especially didn't want to say: "Well, we decided to close, good luck to everyone." It was very important to us that the team could continue.
Then, I set up my entity, Just an Idea, which is a bit of an extension of Colette because I remain at the crossroads of many things I love: the development of collaborations, advice on retail experiences, curating...
At the beginning, I told myself that I would not appear at all. And finally, we are in an era where I also appear on the projects I sign.
And I am delighted to continue collaborating with talents from the Colette era, like Steve and Julien recently at Le Bon Marché for the Mise en Page project.
It's very natural. We understand each other quickly and we make things happen quickly. I hope we still have beautiful adventures ahead of us.
We don't see each other all the time, but I think there is mutual respect.
Déborah Pham — Exactly, Mise en Page, what was it exactly? An exhibition?
Sarah Andelman — We closed Colette in 2017. I set up Just an Idea in 2018, with a lot of different small projects.
End of 2023, Le Bon Marché proposed to me to imagine a project that would invest all the shop windows of the rue de Sèvres, two spaces on the ground floor, one on the first floor and one on the second. Immense and very empty spaces.
We had to find a common thread. I thought of books because I had created a small publishing house, Just an Idea Books, and I imagined something around the pleasure of books, book clubs...
Not a classic bookstore, since there is already one at Le Bon Marché, but rather a whole universe in which books would appear somehow, in perfumes, accessories, etc.
I proposed to the artist Jean Jullien, with whom Julien has worked a lot, to design the entire artistic direction.
He created these large characters, the Paper People, who filled the interior space and the shop windows and came out of classic books.
And for Steve, I had dreamed of a book-shaped chocolate box, with something like a book cover inside.
Steve Dolfi — What is fantastic about Sarah is that she calls you and says: "I would like us to make a book called This is an egg, with a chocolate egg inside, and sell it at Le Bon Marché."
Everyone is so involved in this dynamic that a week later, I send her the open book with the egg inside, completely ready to be installed at Le Bon Marché.
Sarah Andelman — What is fantastic is having this responsiveness.
Steve Dolfi — Everything is super simple when we do things together. It's so cool.
Déborah Pham — It is quite rare to have around this table so many people who undertake. So, I am interested: what are the values that matter to you in work? The really important things?
Julien Pham — When I launched Family First, I was coming out of a complicated adventure with partners. Associations are always difficult.
I really wanted to be able to express myself through my identity, without compromise. For me, that was the common thread: my values, my way of approaching subjects, my vision.
Obviously, I always work in collaboration with other people, but without ever compromising my values.
When you start, it is difficult because you have to hold on. It would be easier to make compromises, but from the start, I told myself: "No, it will be my vision."
Steve Dolfi — And what are the big markers you do not want to compromise on?
Julien Pham — I have never thought about it a lot.
The body is well made: it makes you feel things. So, often, it is instinct that speaks.
When I feel that a project makes no sense or that there is something that is not ethically right, especially in food, it blocks.
We are not going to work against the seasons, we are going to try to pay people well, to have human values in an environment that remains very commercial.
We all do commercial work for brands. I simply try to twist them a little towards me rather than being 100% at their service.
I am not going to change the world. But if I work with big brands, my role is also to try to bring them towards something more human, more realistic.
Because when imagining projects, we can very quickly go in all directions. It must also remain realistic from a human point of view and consistent with values.
Basically, my body has to say yes.
Steve Dolfi — I understand pretty well the thing about going in all directions.
Do you remember the first project we did together? I think it was the egg hunt.
Déborah Pham — The famous...
Steve Dolfi — The completely crazy egg hunt we had organized at the Tuileries.
We had not really warned the Tuileries garden, which pointed it out to us afterwards.
We had done a gigantic egg hunt in the garden and, afterwards, you had received a little letter like: "It is nice, but if you organize something like that, please let us know."
People were climbing on the statues, almost jumping into the pond, looking for eggs everywhere...
Sarah Andelman — When you say "people", especially children!
Steve Dolfi — There were not only children...
Then, we rationalized all that and in the following years, we organized much more structured egg hunts.
Déborah Pham — I also have this impression of sky is the limit with Sarah.
Sarah Andelman — We had also done a dog show at the Tuileries!
I don't remember what happened first, the egg hunt or that. I simply remember that we had put dog paw prints between Colette and the Tuileries metro to indicate the way.
At the time, I was starting to think that the Tuileries were an extension of Colette and that maybe I needed to calm down…
Déborah Pham — How are these ideas born?
Sarah Andelman — Spontaneously.
To echo what Julien was saying, I like things to make sense, but I also like to step outside a certain framework.
It’s not necessarily about inventing something completely new, but at least not limiting yourself.
I really love the expression sky is the limit. Always going a little further and creating generous moments.
And it’s great that Steve and others are always there to say yes to the craziest projects.
Déborah Pham — Over all these years, you two have seen a lot of evolution in the culinary world.
What do you think of what’s happening today? What excites you? What do you like a little less?
Julien Pham — For the past two, three, maybe five years, I think extraordinary things have been happening in Paris.
Paris really is the best city in the world right now, for many reasons, not just the food.
Déborah Pham — Are you going to talk to us about football, Julien?
Julien Pham — There’s also sports, yes! We’re winning, there’s PSG, Paris Basketball, some really good basketball…
But to get back to food, if I had to analyze what’s happening, I’d say that today we have a generation of children of immigrants in France and Paris who can finally express themselves with much more freedom.
Before, we were often forced to adhere to certain codes. Now, I feel like those codes have been destroyed in recent years.
We’re seeing fantastic projects emerge, full of identities, full of cultural blends, and that makes Paris shine even more.
We already have all of French history, tradition, and culture, which are magnificent. And today, all these foreign cultures are being added, enriching the landscape.
Why do we eat amazing pizzas in Paris today? Because people from elsewhere are here to make them. Why do certain talents choose Paris when they could express themselves anywhere else?
Le Cheval d’Or, for example, is a fantastic restaurant. You look at the team: everyone comes from different places.
There are plenty of examples like that that make me very happy with what’s happening in Paris today.
There are also far fewer boundaries between street food and haute cuisine. Everyone is talking to each other more and respecting each other, whereas before, the different worlds looked at each other a bit sideways.
I think it’s much freer and healthier today.
Déborah Pham — Do you have the same view, Sarah?
Sarah Andelman — Yes. I’ve always been fully committed to defending Paris.
For me, it has always been an open city, with great places, but it’s true that today it’s much more varied.
And what has changed things enormously in recent years, for better and sometimes for worse, is the importance of social media.
They make it possible to discover places and talents that, previously, might have had a hard time getting known.
Today, I feel like everything is going very, very fast. A place can become a phenomenon immediately.
Julien Pham — That’s true. Food media may have less importance today, or at least they express themselves differently.
Before, they served as validation: as soon as a place was validated by the few major food media, we knew we could go there.
Today, everyone can communicate directly and bring people in all by themselves.
Déborah Pham — Colette, in the end, was already the beginning of that.
Sarah Andelman — We were there before the Internet… and especially before Instagram!
I don’t remember the exact year, but I always say there was a before and after Instagram for Colette.
We had such a busy operation, we were constantly receiving new products and people couldn’t keep up with everything that was happening. We weren’t going to be sending out press releases all the time.
And I remember that Sandrine, who was in charge of Instagram, could post a product that had just arrived before we even had time to get it out of storage.
And immediately, people would show up at the store.
It was fantastic to be able to speak directly to your community.
Julien Pham — For me, today, that’s almost my only way of communicating with my audience.
Déborah Pham — So Paris, the best city in the world, then?
Sarah Andelman — Absolutely. And even more so now!
We have galleries, museums, fairs, events… I’ve always defended Paris.
Steve Dolfi — That’s true, you’ve always defended it.
Sarah Andelman — Benjamin is American and, for ten years, he complained about Paris every day!
Steve Dolfi — Actually, he loves Paris.
Déborah Pham — What is good taste, in your opinion?
Sarah Andelman — I think you shouldn’t impose anything on anyone and that there really is no such thing as “good taste.”
What matters is being comfortable in your own skin, comfortable in your own head, and following your instinct. Not trying to look like something else.
Whether it’s a creation, an object, or something else, if there’s an origin, a story, and solid foundations behind it, for me, that’s what validates something.
Julien Pham — For me, it’s having taste and owning it. Having your own tastes.
“Good taste” is so unique to everyone…
I think, for example, that I chose the À la Mère de Famille products on this table with very good taste! But those are my tastes. I own them and I like them.
Sarah Andelman — Here, you can’t really go wrong either.
Déborah Pham — There’s something that interests me: could you each give us a little recommendation? Something to read, watch, listen to, or a place that has touched you recently.
Julien Pham — I recently discovered a restaurant called La Joie.
Déborah Pham — Oh!
Julien Pham — It’s in the 11th, run by Minot and Florent Ciccoli, whom we really like.
Florent is behind many very successful Parisian restaurants — Café du Coin, Jones, etc. — and Minot worked with him at Café du Coin. He went from being a dishwasher to a commis, Saturday chef, chef of the week, and then permanent chef.
Now they’ve opened their own place together and it’s delicious.
It’s quite rare to find Sri Lankan cuisine made like that in Paris.
It’s my current favorite and I want to draw a little more attention to them.
Déborah Pham — And it’s funny because Sri Lankan cuisine is still fairly unknown in France. In London, a few years ago, Hoppers had really highlighted this cuisine.
That’s a great recommendation.
And you, Sarah?
Sarah Andelman — For me, it would be a destination, a museum.
It’s about thirty minutes from Amsterdam by car. You’ll have to check the name, but it’s a magnificent museum I had never heard of before. They have a huge number of contemporary artists.
And when I went there, there was an artist who had created an entire installation around candy: complete rooms, a kitchen, candy curtains…
Steve Dolfi — I can’t believe it.
Sarah Andelman — It must have been a temporary exhibition, but the museum is really worth the trip anyway.
Déborah Pham — Is there something you hated when you were little that your palate accepts now?
Julien Pham — No.
I was going to say racism…
Déborah Pham — Wait, we’re going way too far there!
Julien Pham — No, really, I eat everything. I love it.
Déborah Pham — You too, Sarah?
Sarah Andelman — I’m curious. But if there’s something I really don’t like, I think I’ll never like it.
Déborah Pham — And something you could eat endlessly?
Sarah Andelman — Cotton candy.
Steve Dolfi — That’s funny, you often talk to me about cotton candy.
Sarah Andelman — That’s true.
Steve Dolfi — And you don’t want to make it at home?
Sarah Andelman — I already have plenty of things, too many things.
Philippe is capable of making cotton candy at home, though.
Déborah Pham — Do you have a machine?
Sarah Andelman — We have a machine, but we don’t really use it.
But when I see it, I want some. And pralines too: I could never stop.
Obviously, I try to be careful. But sometimes, it’s enough to see something or smell the scent.
Recently, I was riding my bike and smelled pralines. And I said to myself: “No, the smell is not enough at all. On the contrary, it makes me crave it. I have to eat some!”
Déborah Pham — And you, Julien?
Julien Pham — I have very simple tastes. Often, they appeal to my childhood.
You put a fried egg with Maggi on my plate, I could eat that every day.
Déborah Pham — It’s a very accessible pleasure.
Julien Pham — Very accessible, very guilty.
Déborah Pham — Maggi, is that the little cube?
Julien Pham — There’s the cube, but here I’m talking more about Maggi Flavouring.
Déborah Pham — Oh yes, the little bottle!
Julien Pham — That’s it. It’s very bad for your health, so it’s not great to promote it…
Déborah Pham — But it’s delicious.
Julien Pham — That’s it.
Déborah Pham — And it’s used in quite a few cuisines. Here, we’re thinking of Vietnamese cuisine, but in other countries too.
Julien Pham — A lot in Africa, especially West Africa.
Déborah Pham — A simple pleasure.
And you, Steve, you’ve never told me: what could you eat endlessly?
Steve Dolfi — There’s one thing I actually eat endlessly.
We often travel to plantations to look for new cacao and, sometimes, we end up in the middle of nowhere in Ecuador or Madagascar. Gastronomy is not necessarily highlighted…
And chicken breast with fries, I think I can eat it anywhere.
Déborah Pham — Oh my god, I didn’t expect that at all!
I really thought you were going to come up with something very sophisticated.
Steve Dolfi — Chicken and fries, that’s something you find on the menu pretty much everywhere in the world.
Déborah Pham — I thought you were going to talk about the cacao pod. You know, the mucilage you love.
Steve Dolfi — Oh yes! When you open a cacao pod, there’s a kind of flesh around the cacao beans, a bit slimy.
But you really have to taste that once in your life. It’s a flesh that almost tastes like candy, very tart. Sometimes, you get notes of citrus, watermelon…
Sarah Andelman — So, the only way to taste that is to go to a cacao plantation?
Steve Dolfi — I sometimes try to bring some back.
Déborah Pham — Here, it’s not obvious, I guess. But I remember that in Brazil, they had already made cocktails with it. A caipirinha with some in it was killer.
Sarah Andelman — We still have a lot to discover.
In the Philippines, for example, I discovered calamansi, the small lemon. I thought it was incredible.
Déborah Pham — Do you cook a lot?
Sarah Andelman — Not at all. Philippe is the one who cooks.
I love eating, I’m very much of a foodie, but I’m lucky to have Philippe, who cooks a lot.
Steve Dolfi — Can I tell an anecdote about Philippe?
Once, he prepared a Mexican meal for us. He had made the cheese himself. That gives you an idea of the person’s level of precision.
Déborah Pham — He had made the cheese?
Steve Dolfi — Himself.
Déborah Pham — It’s almost a tradwife thing on social media: making your own butter, cheese, bread…
Julien Pham — He is extremely demanding.
Déborah Pham — Very geeky, then. It must have been a pleasure.
Sarah Andelman — We have a lot of drawers full of machines we no longer use…
Steve Dolfi — But Philippe is the only guy who buys a machine and actually uses it.
We’ve all bought that kind of thing…
Déborah Pham — Since we’re getting together for a snack, did you have a snack when you were little?
Sarah Andelman — Yes.
Julien Pham — Yes.
Déborah Pham — Was it always the same snack?
Julien Pham — BN.
Déborah Pham — Oh yes!
Julien Pham — With the little plastic box you hung on your belt.
Déborah Pham — You walked around with that?
Julien Pham — It was a yellow box. You opened it, and you could wear it on your belt…
Steve Dolfi — I think we’re going to make one with Gift Shop.
Déborah Pham — Just so I can ask, how would you describe Gift Shop to me?
Julien Pham — Gift Shop is a project that was created a little over two years ago by Mathieu Le Breton, who approached me from the start.
Merch — or, as we prefer to call it, souvenirs from restaurants around the world —, has always fascinated me. I know Sarah too, her t-shirt is proof of that.
We started Gift Shop by focusing on Parisian institutions: going to celebrate them by creating textile and object collections inspired by these places that make up the culture and history of Paris.
Obviously, at some point, we thought it would be nice to go and chat with Steve and À la Mère de Famille.
And we developed a collection together.
Déborah Pham — Not just textiles, by the way.
Julien Pham — No. We have the tartine spreader, for example.
The objects have to make sense in relation to the institution.
We made a bandana because historically, À la Mère de Famille has always played around with patterns. It was interesting to echo that.
And that’s just the beginning. There’s a bike, a skateboard…
Sarah Andelman — Oh yeah!
Steve Dolfi — There are plenty of things.
And what’s great is being able to call someone and say, “Hey, how about we make a puffer jacket?”
Julien Pham — In fact, you’re doing to us what Sarah has done to you all her life!
Déborah Pham — It’s totally your style.
Steve Dolfi — Someone at the office said, “In two years, we won’t make chocolate anymore, we’ll only make merch.”
I don’t think we’ll ever get there, but in any case, we take enormous pleasure in doing it.
Julien Pham — What interests me is playing with the affection people have for places and institutions.
Personally, today I’m less inclined to wear the logo of a major fashion brand. On the other hand, I’m much more inclined to represent a restaurant I love or an institution.
I think it’s a healthier connection with places, with people who work incredibly hard, often independent shopkeepers.
Déborah Pham — It’s also a marker of recognition.
When I travel alone, I sometimes wear the t-shirt of a bar or a place, and I make friends because of it.
I think once, in Japan, I was wearing a Bar Brutal t-shirt. Someone immediately made a comment: “Oh, you went to that bar!”
When you travel alone, it instantly creates a conversation starter.
Julien Pham — I think subconsciously, that’s also what we’re looking for.
A place, an address, is something very specific. And when someone recognizes your t-shirt or your cap, there’s immediately a connection between you.
It often leads to a nice moment, and the connection is bound to be sincere.
Déborah Pham — Which one do you take on vacation?
Julien Pham — Right now, it depends.
We developed Le Petit Vendôme, which has a really beautiful collection. Now, there’s À la Mère de Famille. There’s a very beautiful coat, even if it’s not really the season yet…
I’m already wearing the t-shirt.
Sarah Andelman — What’s nice about Gift Shop is that I think it’s a really great idea. I regret not having come up with it!
You really adapt the products to the institutions.
For La Fontaine de Mars, which is near us, they are rather objects directly inspired by the place: the napkin, the mug, the small catchall tray…
Julien Pham — We are precisely trying to move away from the systematization of the low-quality t-shirt and make objects that make sense.
Steve Dolfi — The lining of the La Fontaine de Mars jacket, for example, uses the pattern of the restaurant’s tablecloth.
In addition to being great, it’s really beautiful.
Julien Pham — Yes. And the details, the quality…
We want to make products that can last over time.
I think we’ve all had t-shirts from places we love that, after three washes, go from XL to XS or become thin as a Kleenex.
You keep them in your closet for sentimental reasons, but you don’t wear them anymore.
Steve Dolfi — That was precisely our limit.
We had already developed merch, but we didn’t always have the opportunity to really take the idea all the way.
With Gift Shop, ideas are much easier to bring to life.
Déborah Pham — And they are beautiful objects.
It’s funny because some brands did this a very long time ago. I think of the Hard Rock Cafe, with the whole memorabilia universe: you run into someone who has the one from Denver, New York, Singapore, Paris…
Ultimately, it tells a story.
And in restaurants, how many times do people steal a glass, an ashtray, an object from the bathroom, or a piece of decor simply because they want to take home a souvenir of the place?
Sarah Andelman — Now, you might as well sell it rather than have it stolen!
Déborah Pham — Exactly.
And then it also allows the restaurant to have an additional source of income. In lean times, that can make a difference.
Julien Pham — Yes. It’s an additional source of income, but it’s absolutely not the restaurateurs’ business.
Developing it themselves is often very complicated.
They already don’t have much space in Paris to have stock. And asking the staff, who are often already overworked, to also become t-shirt or mug salespeople is not realistic.
So Gift Shop can be quite useful for these institutions.
Sarah Andelman — It makes me think of bookstores.
One of the starting points of Mise en Page was that I saw more and more people wearing the bags of bookstores like Shakespeare and Company in Paris or Daunt Books in London.
For these bookstores, merch can also become a second life, a way to survive while people may be buying fewer books or buying them differently.
Julien Pham — It’s also a way to support independent businesses, rather than claiming a major brand whose ethics are sometimes not incredible.
Sarah Andelman — Well, buy merch!
Steve Dolfi — Sarah, now you have to choose between the pumpkin seed praline and this big bar.
Sarah Andelman — Oh my god…
Steve Dolfi — Honestly, we’re going to open both.
Sarah Andelman — No!
Steve Dolfi — Yes, yes.
Déborah Pham — Are you more savory than sweet, Julien?
Julien Pham — Am I allowed to say it here?
Déborah Pham — Of course!
Julien Pham — I’m rather savory, yes. But I love sugar.
Sometimes, I get cravings and I’m able to leave my house just to go get something sweet.
Déborah Pham — And you, Sarah, savory or sweet?
Sarah Andelman — Sweet.
Déborah Pham — It’s not bad, finally: we have a little bit of sugar and savory around the table.
And this squash cream?
Julien Pham — Very good.
Déborah Pham — It was so nice talking to you. Thank you for taking the time.
Sarah Andelman — Thank you very much.
Julien Pham — Thank you.
Déborah Pham — And we’ll say see you soon for the next one.
Sarah Andelman — With pleasure.
Julien Pham — With pleasure.
Déborah Pham — Goodbye!
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Every month, Déborah Pham, a journalist, and Steve Dolfi, co-owner of the oldest chocolate shop in Paris, receive inspiring guests for snack time, in the secret dining room of the historic shop. Personalities we want to listen to and have talk about transmission. Each guest arrives with a confidant, a person who matters, from whom they have received an influence or to whom they have transmitted a certain vision of the world. For one hour, we talk about bonds, memories, what is transmitted without even thinking about it. An unfiltered conversation with a full mouth, since here we have the right.
